In order to keep the fun in game higher

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Deeelite
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In order to keep the fun in game higher

Post#1 » Sat 27 Feb, 2021 9:38 am

I am sure I'm about to face an unspoken but well known problem here:
it is quite impossible to have balance in game, even more than sometimes and even tho the exp level is the same on both teams, in whatever way we will manage to calculate it.
The work MasterOfBlubbs is attempting to make in exp calculation won't always will bring the espected outcome.
Even tho we will find a way to have the exp value perfectly fitting the reality, there will always be other factors to mess the results up.

So I'm almost convinced that in addiction, we need to adapt other few modifications too.

Jets are fun for sure but not always, expecially if one team owns a bloody good pilot while the other team neither can afford to buy one and, even when money wouldn't have been the problem, they have not pilots at all.

In this specific example, which occured yesterday and many other times, one team can afford to keep 'plaralized' the other for a long, too long time. The fuel tweaks are more penalizing the not skilled pilots rather the good ones which, instead, have quickly learned how to deal with. Ironically, while we had pilots flying longer before, even when almost out of ammo (and that was the moment to catch them easier coz bored), now pilots fly in a even more skilled way and seize the refuel occasion to rearm too and players like me are available to rearm their planes when they cannot.

Now, due the new fuel consumption system, they are become even more unpossible to lock by AA weapons since low-passing at maximum speed is the worst condition.

In short, jets are still causing the same annoying problem when not contrastable.

I think the game should at least spawn a light jet for free for a team (not immediately, of course), on each occasion the other owns one. That free jet will keep on respawning untill the enemy one is active. Once it is destroyed, the free jet pilot will be forced to eject in 3 mins and his plane deleted.

This should give the skilled pilot more challenge and fun to both teams.

What we basically should avoid in game, is to limitate frustrating conditions. Players like Mudokon and skilled pilots are giving the very same problem which is causing eutw to die since sometimes the fun factor is taken totally away. We must find a way to let the enemy always react to problems, by giving more chances when situations are paralizing any possible effort.

Eutw players should be also brought and invited to understand (or remember) that the fun is given by fairly fights rather by winning. There is no fun in constantly waiting at base.

This is why we have so much ragequitting.

Feel free to add more suggestions to keep the fighting challenging.
"When taking part in a discussion, the most difficult thing is not defending your opinion, but knowing what it is in the first place." André Maurois

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Elvis_FIN
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Re: In order to keep the fun in game higher

Post#2 » Sat 27 Feb, 2021 4:32 pm

Not an easy topic to solve. Usually best is if team works together to take down a threat, rather than having random AA guys around the map. I agree that jets are sometimes very hard to take down with AA launher when pilot is good and especially new jets which goes super sonic. But giving free jet(s) to other team does not sound a very good solution. It would be quite a same as start spawning AI's to defend a flag after Mudokon has killed all human players until Mudokon is dead. And not quite fair when other team uses like 50k for a jet and other team is given free resourses to take it down.

Some initial ideas:

1. Implement that personal container (discussed earlier), so AT riflemen can switch between launchers without risking to lose other launcher. Without that some AT guys maybe do not want to buy AA by risking to lose their AT launcher. If they switch between launchers often and need to buy always new launcher they could run out of money easily.

2. Add possibility to buy covered trucks at HQ. Then jet do not know which is correct EMHQ and probably do not waste missile to every covered truck. Covered truck should have higher price (maybe around 3000cr) to avoid it being used too much. And only available at HQ, not on flags. These trucks can also be used to create AA trap for jets. This of course affects to AT guys negatively. So maybe actual MHQs should have some marking on them what can be visually seen to confirm if that covered truck is EMHQ or not. But in radar all look the same.

3. Only owner can rearm jet. This forces jet pilot to think more what to shoot when running out of own money. Also then donated jets are not that good, if donator has left the server.

4. Game speed at EUTW is quite fast. If some guys start doing e.g. AA trap it might take so much time that enemy can capture some flags at the same time. Slowing flag tick time could slow whole game speed and gives more room for tactical actions like this. Could make flag capturing harder, but (I think) quite easy to test how it affect playing at EUTW.

There are many other things also that can suck out the fun e.g.:
- Very good shooter that can clear flags just by himself (especially when having strong team behind him)
- Very good attack chopper pilots in light layouts
- And of course people that unbalance the game by joining the stronger team = people who only play for winning, not for fun
- Players that always stick to same faction, which causes different kind of issues

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Deeelite
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Re: In order to keep the fun in game higher

Post#3 » Sat 27 Feb, 2021 6:57 pm

Elvis_FIN wrote:
Hidden Text
Not an easy topic to solve. Usually best is if team works together to take down a threat, rather than having random AA guys around the map. I agree that jets are sometimes very hard to take down with AA launher when pilot is good and especially new jets which goes super sonic. But giving free jet(s) to other team does not sound a very good solution. It would be quite a same as start spawning AI's to defend a flag after Mudokon has killed all human players until Mudokon is dead. And not quite fair when other team uses like 50k for a jet and other team is given free resourses to take it down.

Some initial ideas:

1. Implement that personal container (discussed earlier), so AT riflemen can switch between launchers without risking to lose other launcher. Without that some AT guys maybe do not want to buy AA by risking to lose their AT launcher. If they switch between launchers often and need to buy always new launcher they could run out of money easily.

2. Add possibility to buy covered trucks at HQ. Then jet do not know which is correct EMHQ and probably do not waste missile to every covered truck. Covered truck should have higher price (maybe around 3000cr) to avoid it being used too much. And only available at HQ, not on flags. These trucks can also be used to create AA trap for jets. This of course affects to AT guys negatively. So maybe actual MHQs should have some marking on them what can be visually seen to confirm if that covered truck is EMHQ or not. But in radar all look the same.

3. Only owner can rearm jet. This forces jet pilot to think more what to shoot when running out of own money. Also then donated jets are not that good, if donator has left the server.

4. Game speed at EUTW is quite fast. If some guys start doing e.g. AA trap it might take so much time that enemy can capture some flags at the same time. Slowing flag tick time could slow whole game speed and gives more room for tactical actions like this. Could make flag capturing harder, but (I think) quite easy to test how it affect playing at EUTW.

There are many other things also that can suck out the fun e.g.:
- Very good shooter that can clear flags just by himself (especially when having strong team behind him)
- Very good attack chopper pilots in light layouts
- And of course people that unbalance the game by joining the stronger team = people who only play for winning, not for fun
- Players that always stick to same faction, which causes different kind of issues


What I forgot to add in my post above is to consider the not so rare cases where a team is afflicted by too much of new player or bad ones: that round is going to totally piss off the rest of the team because eutw has been re-designed for hardcore matches.

We'd better condider these episodes more: we are losing players and it's gonna be even more sad, considering I'm seeing many old members trying to visit us again and complaining about the fun factor.

1) Personal container or money refund when switching a weapon.
+1

2) Fake mhqs is a lovely roll-back I wish implemented. We already discussed it recently: it was more fun to understand which the real MHQ was, in earlier times. This surely will cause pilots to better interact with ground mates in order to get proper intel about targets.
+1

3) only owners can rearm jets: this is gonna penalize the other team too, expecially when in dire straits with currency or without good pilots. I still think a free jet will give some challenge to the skilled pilot, some good dogfight will make him happier for sure and the other team won't feel so much out of hope.
-1

4) Game speed is quite ok, imo. We cannot encourage players no to defend. This is a lesson new players have to learn but also some regular players are messing up with this point, sometimes. It's not that rare to see veterans underestimating enemy attacks or tactics.

Explain me better this last point, Elvis with examples, maybe I'm missing something.
"When taking part in a discussion, the most difficult thing is not defending your opinion, but knowing what it is in the first place." André Maurois

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Elvis_FIN
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Re: In order to keep the fun in game higher

Post#4 » Sun 28 Feb, 2021 3:16 am

Deeelite wrote:4) Game speed is quite ok, imo. We cannot encourage players no to defend. This is a lesson new players have to learn but also some regular players are messing up with this point, sometimes. It's not that rare to see veterans underestimating enemy attacks or tactics.

Explain me better this last point, Elvis with examples, maybe I'm missing something.

If doing some special missions like creating AA trap for enemy jet, you probably send few experienced player for the mission. All that time they are away from defending or capturing flags. With current 15sec tick time flags can be captured very fast. In best cases 5min/flag. That is so fast that you might lose more when sending those guys to special mission that keeping them just in desparate defending. EUTW game pace is closer to "rush rush" than "think think". If tick time would be 30sec then maybe whole gameplay goes little bit more towards "think think" and might make whole game experience better? Same as you can experience in very early game when there is like 4 vs 4 and everyone has much more time to think.

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Deeelite
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Re: In order to keep the fun in game higher

Post#5 » Sun 28 Feb, 2021 12:08 pm

Yeah, Elvis, chasing planes requires sometimes two men at least, lot of luck and waste of titan rockets: one more reason to give a jet but not before 15 mins and then delete it.

jets too expensive = richest and more skilled ones risk to dominate for too long (current setting)

jets too cheap = too much of players will constantly fly (opposite unpraticable solution)

Different solutions will bring collateral effects to the other compensations eutw admins have tried to level among yeras, imo.

also: jets of different Arma factions have different features and Shirka, being faster, tends to have superiority among the other models and AA defences.

For this reason, the best way is to contrast it with a free jet, in order to re balance Arma factions differences.
"When taking part in a discussion, the most difficult thing is not defending your opinion, but knowing what it is in the first place." André Maurois

TheMasterofBlubb
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Re: In order to keep the fun in game higher

Post#6 » Mon 01 Mar, 2021 3:29 am

I personally dont think that a free jet will rebalance anything.
If a troll uses it(as you cant lock it) its wasted ressources at best.
If a noob uses it he gets shot down and donates 25k to the enemy team.
If a pro uses it will dominate the enemy without repercussion as he just gets it for free and can buy his own later.

What i definetly disagreed is causation/correlatio of jets beeing more difficult to shoot down because no noobie is flying them because of the fuel script, its simply because people figured out that flying over 1200km/h can prevent any AA lock, thats a ARMA "feature". As for now there is no way to counter that with man pad weapons. You can lock on with the cannons of AA tanks if you turn the radar on.
(I made a feature request to add new missiles for the AA tanks to mitigate that)

But jets arent the only thing that can be that devestating, tanks can be too or even attack choppers if crewed properly (the black fish is even more powerfull as it can kill tanks with like 2 shots and it has merely 60 of those).

There are ACEs in any category that will erradicate enemy forces, but thats exactly the point of combined warfare.

To the different factions, they are pretty much balanced through money, the less capable vehicles have significantly lower prices.

The tick timer increase could help a bit to slow down the gameplay but also will create more stalemates as then there is way more time to drive defenses up, so basically you give defenders more time to bring in heavy gear, but attackers need to defend their points and still bring new stuff (usually with longer drive times, thats when such massive pushes happen), that would result in dampened momentum after for example eliminating said jets or tank.


Money refund for switching teams is on its way(mainly you dont lose gear when switching teams anymore and you get your late join bonus when joining back to your original team, thats the most balanced way to do that)

Personal container was discussed previously, its a double edged sword, what to do when a player disconnects? Drop it into the common one, but what if he only switched classes? What do we do with weapon refunds if a player just picked up the weapon? He shouldnt get a refund, but also the weapon shouldnt disappear as someone left it for the team.
My best idea for that is having a "Buy for crate" option, where you can buy any item from your faction and it will be put into the common box, that way you can simply ask someone to buy you a launcher or you can buy one for your team.
(Im not sure how feasible it is with the shop system (technically it shouldnt be THAT difficult, but im not the most experienced one there))

With the fake MHQ it was made so the MHQ is a unique vehicle because many new people got massively confused, why 1 vehicle was a spawn point and the other wasnt. So basically the same reason why you want it back just in a negative way XD
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Deeelite
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Re: In order to keep the fun in game higher

Post#7 » Mon 01 Mar, 2021 7:15 pm

I have considered that a noob could take the free jet and waste it but it was a remote possibility, in my mind, since we really rarely have had occasions where newbie or trollers have tried to take or steal them, as far as I can remeber.

Anyway, the best alternate solution would then be to let the players transfer money each other so that one good pilot, if ever there is one, can have a jet quicker. No trolls will receive money for sure, this way.
"When taking part in a discussion, the most difficult thing is not defending your opinion, but knowing what it is in the first place." André Maurois

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Reptile
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Re: In order to keep the fun in game higher

Post#8 » Mon 01 Mar, 2021 7:18 pm

I feel currently the games are very balanced : no team is able to win the last games. The game stays stuck around the same two or three flags in the middle of the map until players get fatigued and disconnect before any team win.

Personnally I do not feel jets are paralyzing the other team (they dont bother me that much buy I am mostly a pedestrian). Darters are more of a pain IMO.

The problem with jet is that it can make paradrop impossible and that can be a problem for maps with terrains that make driving MHQ difficult.

Sektor B is a good example. Reaching the other side of the map with the bovine-truck is just too annoying. No player wants to go through driving a MHQ for 10 mn (I don't). Then paradrop is the only viable option and if there is an ennemy jet in the air, the game is effectively stopped.

I think more flags (closer to each other) would make the game more dynamic and reduce the impact of jets as we would travel in the open land on shorter distances.

Regarding launchers, if we cannot store them, perhaps we could sell them back with a (partial?) refund.

Actually I would really like to be able to sell back gear at base (with a discount), and particularly captured ennemy vehicles. That would be a nice reward for capturing ennemy's property.

I like very much the idea of fake MHQ. That can add interesting tactical choices.

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Elvis_FIN
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Re: In order to keep the fun in game higher

Post#9 » Mon 01 Mar, 2021 7:23 pm

TheMasterofBlubb wrote:With the fake MHQ it was made so the MHQ is a unique vehicle because many new people got massively confused, why 1 vehicle was a spawn point and the other wasnt. So basically the same reason why you want it back just in a negative way XD

You already implemented MIPs which are also spawn point, so MHQ is not that unique. Just make e.g. red star icon on sides of MHQ cover and fake non-MHQ covered trucks are without star icon. I think even noobs are that smart that they understand the difference when that is explained to them (or they even read the instructions). Of course there could be misunderstanding when totally new to EUTW, but there are so many more main things also to learn (like flag capturing/defending), so player who wants to learn the game will learn quite easily difference between MHQ and fake non-MHQ.

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Deeelite
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Re: In order to keep the fun in game higher

Post#10 » Tue 02 Mar, 2021 6:25 pm

Reptile wrote:I think more flags (closer to each other) would make the game more dynamic and reduce the impact of jets as we would travel in the open land on shorter distances.


Lol Reptile...Kavala has flags 300 mts far each other and lots of players do not spawn if there is no mhq...

I agree, anyway, also with the MHQ.

Maybe by adding a little EUTW flag on the MHQ doors will help noobs to distinguish them, from close distance, at least . I doubt jets will see it easily, but u never can be sure of anything here.
"When taking part in a discussion, the most difficult thing is not defending your opinion, but knowing what it is in the first place." André Maurois

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