new exp level calculation suggestion

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TheMasterofBlubb
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Re: new exp level calculation suggestion

Post#26 » Mon 22 Feb, 2021 12:42 pm

Btw comparing you to Darth:
Darth has about
- 30% more inf kills per timeplayed
- 2x more Veh kills per time played
- and a whole lot of 50x more Air kills

By that stats he is one that goes into action more often than you. So the stats show that too to some degree.
Although i need to find a different metric for "beeing in action" as the current one has issues with people like darth(there are like 4 or 5 of those)
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Elvis_FIN
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Re: new exp level calculation suggestion

Post#27 » Mon 22 Feb, 2021 5:28 pm

Simple example:
Player A - EMHQ arrives to attack. Player kills 10 enemies until gets killed and flag was lost.
Player B - EMHQ arrives to attack. Player goes for EMHQ and destroys it. Did not killed anyone, but flag was saved.

By exp calculation player A is more of a threat to enemy even reality was opposite in case like this.

Just boosting killing ration to exp calculation is maybe not the best approach.
Yes K/D ration is one major factor, but how to play at EUTW and being efficient has so many other major factors.
Sadly it is mission impossible to put into mathematical formula how smart player is playing.

My concern is that if new formula is going to be even worse than current one? But it is ongoing work, so maybe outcome will be very good in the end. Just giving my thoughts about it on the way.

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Re: new exp level calculation suggestion

Post#28 » Mon 22 Feb, 2021 5:35 pm

TheMasterofBlubb wrote:Btw comparing you to Darth:
Darth has about
- 30% more inf kills per timeplayed
- 2x more Veh kills per time played
- and a whole lot of 50x more Air kills

By that stats he is one that goes into action more often than you. So the stats show that too to some degree.
Although i need to find a different metric for "beeing in action" as the current one has issues with people like darth(there are like 4 or 5 of those)


This is not entirely correct, do we want to get a measure of the combat experience of a particular match? Why can't a player enter with the same recoil script as Mudokon's or whatever he has and start to ruin it with 0 exp? accordingly, the value of such a calculation is not too great.
It seems to me that calc in a specific match should be taken into account more, and not for years of military service at EUTW, veteran experience should also be taken into account, but to a lesser extent. For example, 7.2 Mudokon vs 9.9 Darth, with all due respect to Darth, looks very strange...

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Re: new exp level calculation suggestion

Post#29 » Mon 22 Feb, 2021 6:11 pm

1. How does that legend of those mysterious recoil scripts atill survive to this day after endless explenations, that you dont need them as everything in question is built into arma? (But we go offtopic)

2. You cant just take 1 match into account as :
A) at the beginning of the match everyone would be at almost 0.
B) having a specific play pattern does change your team value immensly, that pattern is what we can see in the past
C) BTW i noted somewhere up the thread that making this calculation live is very difficult to achieve due to me grabbing stuff from the DB and not the live game(i put quite some load on the DB and im not sure if that will be viable as a longterm solution) the idea would be to run that system for example daily and update the EXP values
D) it happend already where a whole milsim squad (like 6 or 7 people) joined all near 0 EXP and they stomped the whole enemy team alone, we cant prevent that from happening, but that fixes itself when they come back the second time

3. The veteran experience is counted up until 200h of playtime (its arbitrarily, but comes from a previous discussion on this topic) check out the formula some posts prior for more details

4. This is a feedbackthread to try out some ideas on how to calculate the EXP, feel free to post ideas and i can give you the results so we discuss if its viable. This set is a tad bit modified from the first post in this thread to not only include KD ratings (as those are very misleading if used alone),but to have a sort of "action"-factor for active people, as those can drive the match due to their continues effort. I will test a kills per h factor today if that changes the values a bit.
Last edited by TheMasterofBlubb on Mon 22 Feb, 2021 8:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: new exp level calculation suggestion

Post#30 » Mon 22 Feb, 2021 6:17 pm

And btw looking at the number it makes quite a lot of sense why darth gets a higher rating, not only are Mudo and him almost on par with kills/h but Darth beats him on air assets by a lot, that means statistically Darth is a better value than Mudo, because (for now) Mudo isnt much of an Air asset player wich means he needs someone to do that job for him.
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Elvis_FIN
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Re: new exp level calculation suggestion

Post#31 » Mon 22 Feb, 2021 6:43 pm

TheMasterofBlubb wrote:And btw looking at the number it makes quite a lot of sense why darth gets a higher rating, not only are Mudo and him almost on par with kills/h but Darth beats him on air assets by a lot, that means statistically Darth is a better value than Mudo, because (for now) Mudo isnt much of an Air asset player wich means he needs someone to do that job for him.

But while Darth is in the air someone need to do flag capturing for him ;)

Doing all kind of things (infantry, vehicles, air...) does not mean someone is more value to team. Actually I think most efficient team and higher value for each player is that where all players stick to their strenghts. Keep best pilots in the air, best AT guys to hunt enemy vehicles, best infantry guys to capture flags, best tank guys in tanks... Of course more fun can be doing different things, but that might not always being most value to team.

Would it be closer to exp value reality just drop out different categories (inf, veh, air) when killing enemies? So no matter if you are in plane or as infantry when killing enemies or destorying enemy vehicles, all are same. But if you want to keep this kind of "jack of all trades" calculation then I suggest you also extend it to infantry roles. Max infantry side exp is divided from 1/4 light rifleman kills, 1/4 autorifleman kills, 1/4 sniper kills and 1/4 AT guy kills. So if you only play e.g. sniper, you can only collect 1/4 max exp from infantry side.

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Re: new exp level calculation suggestion

Post#32 » Mon 22 Feb, 2021 6:53 pm

the adjusted formula:
contribution redifined to Kills / h * category factor (1 for Inf , 5 for Veh, 10 for Air, because the latter are rare in the game)

3,8 Leroy
14,1 Mudokon
3,7 Deeelite
4,3 Elvis
17,1 Darth
5,2 TheMasterofBlubb
6,5 Salam
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TheMasterofBlubb
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Re: new exp level calculation suggestion

Post#33 » Mon 22 Feb, 2021 7:02 pm

Elvis_FIN wrote:
TheMasterofBlubb wrote:And btw looking at the number it makes quite a lot of sense why darth gets a higher rating, not only are Mudo and him almost on par with kills/h but Darth beats him on air assets by a lot, that means statistically Darth is a better value than Mudo, because (for now) Mudo isnt much of an Air asset player wich means he needs someone to do that job for him.

But while Darth is in the air someone need to do flag capturing for him ;)

Thats true, but he can hold down the enemies while the team does that :D

Elvis_FIN wrote:Doing all kind of things (infantry, vehicles, air...) does not mean someone is more value to team. Actually I think most efficient team and higher value for each player is that where all players stick to their strenghts. Keep best pilots in the air, best AT guys to hunt enemy vehicles, best infantry guys to capture flags, best tank guys in tanks... Of course more fun can be doing different things, but that might not always being most value to team.


Cant agree more.

Elvis_FIN wrote:Would it be closer to exp value reality just drop out different categories (inf, veh, air) when killing enemies? So no matter if you are in plane or as infantry when killing enemies or destorying enemy vehicles, all are same. But if you want to keep this kind of "jack of all trades" calculation then I suggest you also extend it to infantry roles. Max infantry side exp is divided from 1/4 light rifleman kills, 1/4 autorifleman kills, 1/4 sniper kills and 1/4 AT guy kills. So if you only play e.g. sniper, you can only collect 1/4 max exp from infantry side.


I actually can do that pretty easy (as i have Categories split more detailed than INF VEH and AIR, but commulate them later).
The bigger issue is that , the data for after the role rework is way less than i like to use , so i would need a table how to assign the old Roles(rifle man, Medic, Engineer, Sniper, AT) to the new ones, as the available Gear changed for some of them.
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Re: new exp level calculation suggestion

Post#34 » Mon 22 Feb, 2021 7:51 pm

Changed the fixed contribution factor to be : kills in that category / total kills of that player
Also added a factor to the KD-Part of 10 (so the KD has the same base weight as the playtime EXP) to spread the EXP a bit to make it more disperse

7,1 Leroy
65,0 Mudokon
5,8 Deeelite
11,4 Elvis
22,0 Darth
13,4 TheMasterofBlubb
8,0 Salam

Note: Just playing 200h will bring you to about 3.3

Note2: It seems like beeing good and long living in Jets does give you some boost in EXP (though noted that jets are a massive gain for the team) Example: 21,3 Coolshark
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Deeelite
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Re: new exp level calculation suggestion

Post#35 » Mon 22 Feb, 2021 9:40 pm

Well, what we most need is to highlight and express in the exp. the level of danger a player can bring, but I understand that the acheiving of a precise and complete method is getting complicated

If the collected data usage is a too complicated method, we can do it manually.

Whether players like Mudokon are cheating or not they deserve the highest value for sure, even tho he starts playing 1 time every 3 months because we must be aware of the REAL EXP level of the current ongoing match.

So playtime should be calculated apart and be the exp contribution for a maximum value of 30-40%.
The remaining percentage should be computed without having care of the kill among the years but just:

[(kills-deaths in match 1) + (kills-deaths in match 2) + (kills-deaths in match 3) + (kills-deaths in match 4) + (kills-deaths in match 5) ] / 5

Now let's put 100 kills and 0 death per match as maximum value acheivable and let's suppose Player A goes over the limit killing 140 enemies and dying 20 times on each of the 5 matches, while Player B has 100 kills and 40 deaths, so that we have :

Player A: 120+120+120+120+120/5 = 120
Player B: 60 + 60 + 60 + 60 + 60/5 = 60

120 - 100 = 20 = 100 [substract 100 to the kill scoreing -> if value is positive or = 0 then count 100]
60 - 100 = - 40 + 100 = 60 [substract 100 to the kill scoreing -> if value is negative then add 100 again]

so 100 for Player A and 60 for player B will be the contribution to fill up the 40% of their exp levels.
Let's assume that both are veterans, they already will have the exp. playtime portion filled up to 40%

Player A has 100% of 40 (40) + 100% of 40 (40) = 80 = 8 exp
Player B has 100% of 40 (40) + 60% of 40 (24) = 64 = 6.4 esp

The remaining 20% should be filled up by vehicles and planes destroyed, somehow.

Here above is the result given by 5 matches, now it would be more professional not to totally reset the kill ratio in the extreme case Player A stays idling for the next five matches. I mean, what to do if Player A connects 5 mins for five times in a row on the next matches without killing? My idea is to consider data only for rounds where a player died or killed 4 times at least: this should imply he has been playing enough too.

Also: if a player is capable to kill a lot in one round and goes smooth for the other ones, the average exp calculation should take that event with more consideration because it means that that player is potentially good. So the algorithm should be able to emphasize the peaks.


note:
What I noticed. according your tests, Master, is that players like Leroy becomes underestimated. As far as I know, Leroy constantly gives an high contribution by destroying lots of vehicles and mhqs (and every kind of armored vehicle), expecially via 'slambushes' so we should find a way to better include spawn/normal vehicles destruction.
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TheMasterofBlubb
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Re: new exp level calculation suggestion

Post#36 » Tue 23 Feb, 2021 12:36 am

Normal vehicle Destruction is accounted, you get 1 kill point for every person you kill in that vehicle, so if the tank is crewed by 2 people you get 2 kills on destruction, if you kill just 1 guy you get 1 kill. The kill point is assigned to the Category of the Killer for the Kill point and to the category of the killed vehicle of the dead guy. Sadly i cannot see if an vehicle gets actually destroyed as thats not logged, but that gets pretty obvious when all people inside the vehicle die.

Issue with MHQ is i cant see who exactly destroyed the MHQ, so i could account for people close to the MHQ the moment it died.


Tracking only stats from recent games per player gets really complicated really fast:
There is a minimum player count for a kill to be counted(currently its a minimum of 10vs10)

So i would need to go through each players history (currently 11000+ players, thats players that had atleast 1 kill / death since the start of 2019, there is data back to almost 2016) check all their session for activity (that meets the absolute minimum of the criteria) then decide how much data is enough as taking 1 session where he played 10min and another one where he played a GMG for 1h or more will be statistically almost worthless as they will have completely different scenarios. (Similar issue goes for manually changing stuff, its quite a lot of data and i dont think that anyone will have enough time to edit a bunch of entries manually)

The currrent approach flattens out differences in day to day basis of the player, it flattens out different scenarios and different team combos.



What currently is missing is the evaluation of activity close to objectives(or MHQs) what will definetly give some people more credit.


The other issue is a portion will be underestimated in general as if you destroy a vehicle with no one inside the system wont catch that, so an empty Marid is worthless in the current system (due to lack of logs for that)


Here is the List of categories i made for internal use in the collector:
UNKNOWN, (thats a special one to handle script failures)
INF,
LIGHTTRANSPORT,
LIGHTFIGHTINGVEHICLE, (Hunter and lighter)
ARMOREDTRANSPORT, (Apc and heavier, including Tempest)
ARMOREDFIGHTINGVEHICLE,
HELICOPTERTRANSPORT,
HELICOPTERFIGHTINGVEHICLE,
PLANETRANSPORT, (Planes are jets and VTOLs
PLANEFIGHTINGVEHICLE,
ARTYMANNED,
ARTYVEHICLE,
UTILITY, (this are Service trucks)
MHQ (this one is special as it currently only counts when the mhq gets killed with a player inside)

Those are recognized and i can give each of those a special weight if you like
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Leroy
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Re: new exp level calculation suggestion

Post#37 » Tue 23 Feb, 2021 11:48 am

Anti personnel mine kills don´t get counted at all on the scoreboard. Do they show up in your statistics?

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Re: new exp level calculation suggestion

Post#38 » Tue 23 Feb, 2021 12:49 pm

Leroy wrote:Anti personnel mine kills don´t get counted at all on the scoreboard. Do they show up in your statistics?


They are counted towards INF Kills specifically.
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Re: new exp level calculation suggestion

Post#39 » Tue 23 Feb, 2021 8:04 pm

Master, I was asking myself:
how is it possible to associate killer and destroyed vehicle for the replay in the stats page in order to rebuild the scene and not for you to use that data to get who destroyed what?

Also, the reward system changes the money you earn depending on the distance the enemy was from the flag (that sentence that tells you that the killed player was nearby the flag or not, so that you earn 500 instead of 300, if I remeber correctly): isn't it possible to detect these triggers for exp count?
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Re: new exp level calculation suggestion

Post#40 » Tue 23 Feb, 2021 9:15 pm

It absolutely is possible to determine wheter a kill was in a specific range of the points, my data collector is missing such feature (it doesnt know where the flags are, yet). The specific reward you get isnt logged, so sadly its not THAT easy, but its fairly doable with not much work.

You as a human beeing might associate if a vehicle gets destroyed, but even then you might be wrong, if everyone gets out of a vehicle, the vehicle isnt tracked in the DB anymore (and by extend in the replay). So if you manage to kill all passangers without destroying the vehicle, what is possible, you would end up in a unclear case looking at the DB entries (vehicle boni arent logged, funny enough they could be)
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Re: new exp level calculation suggestion

Post#41 » Wed 24 Feb, 2021 8:22 am

I don't know how the data are extracted from the rounds but if you can track by CfgVehicles IDs you should be able to track every ArmA object:

http://madbull.arma.free.fr/A3_1.32_CfgVehicles_tree.html

("B_Truck_01_covered_F" should be one of the MHQ)

Otherwise, admins should create compositions for the vehicles needed to be tracked, adding and AttachingTo an hidden/simulation-disabled/muted/vulnerable infantry to the vehicle and then count that dummy inf as vehicle when he dies.

Or,
instead of AttchTo they can MoveInCargo that dummy hidden/bla bla inf as rear passenger of the vehicle (this will take one empty seat away from the vehicle transport capability, not important for MHQs, more influent on tanks or MIPs)
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Re: new exp level calculation suggestion

Post#42 » Wed 24 Feb, 2021 10:21 am

:) i mean thats how we keep track of vehicles right now. The problem adding a dedicated vehicle tracking wouldnt work out of the box as that require some changes for in the DB structure and replay systems (and im not that good in JS to make that as clean as the current implementation).

The current tracking is applied on players, if a player is in a vehicle it basically changes his class from infantry to the vehicle class with a number to show what type of seat he has.

Generally the way the DB is structured isnt the most oprimal way and there are ideas to rework that for arma 4

Another related issue might be performance, tracking ALL vehicles might get a bit taxing on the server but thats a thing that would need to be tested.

Otherwise i currently can keep track of all vehicles and their passengers and i also can see wich people ait in the same vehicles (even when they get out and others get in), as there is an ID for the lieftime of the Server that never repeats.
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Re: new exp level calculation suggestion

Post#43 » Wed 24 Feb, 2021 9:44 pm

yeah, I made few tests but unfortunately there is no way to get around the problem, which is Arma, as usual.

the problem is already visibile in the scoring table of the game: it can only detect the 'kindOf' vehicle but NOT the specific vehicle so that you cannot detect if a player destroyed an empty emhq or an empty quad.

I tried to put a dummy infantry inside the mhq and I wanted to keep it invulnerable untill the mhq damage goes up to 1 (destroyed) or the mhq is not alive anymore but doing this, yes the unit dies but Arma does not associate the killing of that unit to the killer of the vehicle! You must leave the unit vulnerability on but this will often cause that players will kill him without necessarily destroying the mhq....

My question is, anyway; by giving mhqs an unique Variable Name ("MHQ_A_opfor" and "MHQ_B_opfor" e.g.) on every respawn, isnt it possible to detect that playerX destroyed "MHQ_A_opfor" n times ?
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TheMasterofBlubb
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Re: new exp level calculation suggestion

Post#44 » Wed 24 Feb, 2021 10:25 pm

it certainly is (its already in use for a lot of systems, like the Alert when the MHQ is spotted), the problem is there is no system to log the MHQ kill to, so its not the issue of logging it on the Arma side of things, but the logging stuff out side of Arma (there might be a small workaround, but im not sure if that might break some replay things). So for now i cant reliably track who deatroyed the MHQ, but i can for now use a similar system as for the flags, to give tiered points depending on the distance to the MHQ
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Re: new exp level calculation suggestion

Post#45 » Thu 25 Feb, 2021 1:16 am

Can you use that in game scoretable points for exp calculation? There are those points which tell more than just K/D ration. Like capping the flag you get points too. Could be closer to truth when thinking about balance.

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Re: new exp level calculation suggestion

Post#46 » Thu 25 Feb, 2021 2:04 am

im not sure but i think i dont have the arma 3 scores in the DB, but i can track who is in the ring when it gets capped (i have the status of flag and the position of players)
im currently thinking of adding a value for "Gameplay" basically a point system for beeing active around flags, capping, beeing close to enemy MHQs (or even defending the friendly one), maybe even find revives (but not sure if i can see those specifically, i can basically estimate who did a revive, by who is not in the revivable state anymore and who is the one on him the positon data before that).

That value could be pretty interesting for people like Deelite that are underrepresented in the current formula.

I will be busy maintaining some smaller issues first after that i continue on the EXP again (so probably there will be EXP break this weekend)
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Re: new exp level calculation suggestion

Post#47 » Thu 25 Feb, 2021 5:46 pm

I think 200h hard cap for playtime exp is way too low. There are still many things to learn after 200h playtime at EUTW. And especially if player is same time new to ArmA.

If you find scores in DB then forumula like below might be very easy and possibly accurate enough.
50% exp from playtime (hard cap value maybe 2000h)
50% exp from score value average per. minute

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Re: new exp level calculation suggestion

Post#48 » Thu 25 Feb, 2021 7:36 pm

@ Master & Elvis

I think that probably, the curve which indicates the money earned in game (in the stats page) is the one most expressing the player skill without complicated calculations. Money are already proportionally given by eutw according the value of the inflicted damages: all we need is already included there from the mhqs to the infantry inside or outside the cappin area, planes and bla bla bla, which is already pretty good the way it is, to meet our goal.

The only loss is for pilots in planes and crew in tanks that are earning less when destroying vehicles, especially when gunners have commanders which are taking all their credits away.

So, all we need is to express the exp value more related to this curve, rather to the playtime: 40% playtime + 60% average money earned per minute (or every 15 minutes, I don't know, but maybe excluding the money earned by default for being in-game, if possible)

Could this work in an easier way?
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Re: new exp level calculation suggestion

Post#49 » Thu 25 Feb, 2021 9:28 pm

The money curve sadly misses the spend money, so basically i can see the balance but if the player got 30k and spend them inbetween 2 timestamps it takes a lot of work to figure out(besides me not seeing some bought stuff, like mags, so i basically have a discrepancy there that i cant fix)
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Re: new exp level calculation suggestion

Post#50 » Thu 25 Feb, 2021 9:29 pm

Elvis_FIN wrote:I think 200h hard cap for playtime exp is way too low. There are still many things to learn after 200h playtime at EUTW. And especially if player is same time new to ArmA.


Will try that later, can do that in my magic Excel sheet
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