Teamwork, Realism, imbalances

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|DJ| JOHN
Donator
Posts: 53

Teamwork, Realism, imbalances

Post#1 » Sun 09 Sep, 2018 2:03 am

Hi guys,

Just a few words of constructive criticism I hope.

I think that Arma3 has 2 main advantages that makes it so much fun. One is realism; it gives you a realistic warfare. Two is teamwork. With the last major changes you made a few months ago, ie when you made the slammer an MIP and you made it destructive with one AT, you made the game less realistic and teamwork less necessary.

Before those changes, there were some very good dilemmas and therefore great balances which encouraged teamwork.

We had a good circle of strengths and weaknesses. For example, the slammer was afraid of the jet. The jet was afraid of the cheetah. The cheetah was afraid of the slammer. That was a nice circle of dilemmas and it encouraged teamwork.

Another rule that I believe has ruined the warfare realism of the game, is the allowance of base camping with ATs and AAs.

I have never done such thing because I find it terribly lame. I am coming from Arma 2, when we could move our MHQ, and build a base wherever we wanted. That was the challenge of the enemy, to find our base and destroy it. Now we do not have this issue, as we all know where the bases are. The rule used to be that we cannot go any further towards the enemy base from the nearest friendly town. That rule made sure that the warfare was taking place in the towns available to capture.

You have created the perfect mod, for lame campers, where no brain power is necessary, and no teamwork either. All you need to get is ATs and camp outside the base such as "MY FPS ARE CRAZY" does all the time.

There is no dilemma in this mod you have created. No MHQs are needed, nor slammers, nor MIPs either. They are all worthless! As a result, no teamwork is needed either.

All you need to do is spawn on your own to the nearest friendly town, pickup a truck and drive to the nearest enemy town. All experienced players have realised this. There are not many such players on the Blues, but they are mostly on the Reds.

How easy and therefore sad is this?

How much of a realistic warfare is this?

How much of a teamwork is needed for this mod?

The current weekly stats prove my point as well. The Reds have completed 37% of the sessions, they have won 40% of the games but they have only used 31% of the total MHQs, and only 20% of MIPs!! It is evident MIPs are not needed anymore.

My 6 year old son has started playing Fortnite. When I watch him, I feel I am playing a very similar game. Teamwork is minimum. We are on our own and we kill whatever moves. The only teamwork left in EUTW mod, is the revival of your team-mate.

You do not need engineers in your slammers either anymore, as they get destroyed with one AT.

The whole ARMA game, as the name also indicates, should be based on armoured vehicles. The number 1 vehicle that the game should be dedicated to, is the Slammer and the T100. How many T100s and slammers have been purchased by players since you made them as destructible as the MHQs??

Finally we just finished a very long session between Greens and Reds. I was playing with Greens. The round had jets, ATs etc. This game was terribly imbalanced. The Reds can have jets but the Greens cannot have Cheetahs. How do you allow this?

All the Reds needed to do is use Jets and AT campers throughout the game. It was a "turkey-shoot".

When I have my Cheetahs I can clear all these campers in seconds so I can allow my MIPs to move forward. You should not allow in the rotation Greens vs Reds, with ATs and Jets on the game. This is a terribly imbalanced game in favour of the Reds.

All in all, for the sake of our most loving game, please:

1. Encourage teamwork! Otherwise gamers will just move to fortnite, playerunknown's battleground and the likes.

2. Disallow base campers.

3. Make the tanks stronger as they used to be.

When you minimise dilemmas and teamwork, and the game gets boring players move on to better challenges/games.

Respectfully
|DJ| John
:nato:

|DJ| JOHN
Donator
Posts: 53

Re: Teamwork, Realism, imbalances

Post#2 » Sun 09 Sep, 2018 8:57 am

Hey guys,

I woke up with a few more thoughts of our current mod in terms of imbalancing.

Again after the last major changes, the jets are far too strong than they used to be. We have gone back to the older days where Hazardous Mouse could hold back the whole team, with just one Kajman, or Alicazane with just one Jet.

The Cheetahs are utterly useless compared to enemy jets. I lost more than 15 Cheetahs against just one jet. Please make them stronger as they used to be.

Finally, Greens. Their weapons are quite bad. No balance there either. Blues have the Spars which are quite good compared to Katibas now. But Greens have no match to either of them.

Also Greens having no Cheetahs, it makes them really an imbalanced faction against either Blues or Reds, and not fun at all to play with.

Please use Greens a lot less in the rotations of maps.

Respectfully
|DJ| John
:nato:

Grenadier
Community Member
Posts: 70

Re: Teamwork, Realism, imbalances

Post#3 » Sun 09 Sep, 2018 1:19 pm

Hi!

if you mean yesterday's match. therisa.
1. I later joined the green team, but half the team sat on the base. nobody tried to attack.
2. There was no teamwork, no information. Over the zaros outpost flag circled shikra, no one reported this to our 2 pilots. they need such information.
3. The green team has AK-12.Mk-I EMR. These are very good weapons.
4. Slammer became a mip because added Vorona. Vorona is a heavy and expensive launcher, you can take max 3 missle only, without vest,helmet . but it is powerful launcher. player who uses the vorona cant save money for armors/jet. its impossible.
5. about the price, blue and green have more advantages. fucking katiba costs 5k, and "golden" ammo cost 390/420, and still need to buy a vest - 9k, helmet and AT/AA launcher. so the opfor have less used mips.

6. this layouts rotation is shit! if it will be changed , maybe some players come back.
and maybe get back price for some items: stealth helmet and nvg night vision. 65k for stealth helmet? :bangin:

TheMasterofBlubb
PVP Warfare Admin
Posts: 393

Re: Teamwork, Realism, imbalances

Post#4 » Sun 09 Sep, 2018 7:13 pm

@John waiit you know that thiis is not a "MOD", right? This is a mission, that means you can script events or place buildings or make funny gamemodes.
What you cant do is change the way the dmg-model works.
As for wich tank got more vunerable to heat-warheads, it was a Arma 3 Update changing to how HEAT works in general. A heat-warhead(rocket or shell, but not sure about mines) creates a sub munition that actually penetrates the target(tank, wall, tree).
So what changed:
-It actually matters where you hit a Tank with a missile, as the penetrator needs to penetrate something important.
-The angle is importaant too since you need the penetration
-Hitting side or back is better than hittng front, Top is best (but more difficult to hit crtical components,but i come back to that later)

What inf got to kill tanks:
-NLAW got overfly mode (flying over the target locked on and fring a penetrator down towards the target)
-Ttan AT got top attack
-MAAWS aand Vorona
-Tandem HEAT warheads (Ttan AT and Vorona)

What tank got to not die:
-Reactive armor or Cage Armor (single use for the area,can be destroyed by HE type weapons), makes single HEAT charges almost useless, there is a small chance to penetrate cage armor and dealing dmg if you hit in a perfect angle, but can be ignored
-Smoke, can be launched to break the lock of a Guided rocket, works like flares(means the fring of the flares breaks the lock not the actual smoke)
-Camonet, to lower the thermal image / contrast
-Missile warning when getting followed by a guided locked on missile
-As there is a penetrator you have almost no dependance to global health so you can survive more hits

So what we take out of that:

As a tanker:
-Have a commander
-buy the tanks/mips with cage or reactive armor
-Use smoke when warning sound comes ( chance to break is about 60%, the random flight path can hit you though but thats bad luck)
-change positons
-use hight ranges so inf cant lock on you(use camo nets since they reduce the max lock on range)
-when locked on by a missile remember going behind a hill when a top attack titan is coming can be not enough since the missile is over you still seeing you(its flying up to about 100m so try to keep beeiing higher on the hiill)
-Play in a team use inf to secure your surrounding

As a inf:
-HEAT can kill people behing a wall(its a AP penetrator, so fun included)
-If you are facing many armored vehicles with cages reactive armor by Titans/voronas since it does massivle more dmg/money
-The NLAW can disable/destroy light MRAPS with overfly and even disable the turret of a non armored MBT
-Try to get above the target or the side if you cant
-try to get a hit angle of 90° to maximise the penetration
-Check the Crew position of the tanks( nice2know you can unman the new DLC-Tank Armata with 1 single heat, i dont tell you how though)
-use Top attack wisely, since it has longer fly times, so the target has more time, much more, to react
-if you have a single heat missile, against reactive armor or cage, use a he-weapons, grenade launcher, charges, he rockets, whatever, to destroy the armor and then finish the tank by hitting the tank with the HEAT.
-in general it can take more hits to kill a tank when the hits are bad
( i PERSONALLY
-hit a IFRIT with a MAAWS in the back, the penetrator penetarted the back and exited the on the other side without destroying it
-hit a MHQ with a VORONA in the tent, penetrated through and did actually nothing
thats wasted money 2,5k and 3,5k for a bad hit)


As a additional point for both:
The Slammer UP having MPT HEAT Shells instead of the sinigle types. CAN KILL INF BEHIND A WALL and in front of it.
HEAT shells additiional to the penetrator do HE dmg, not much though

This is by far more realistic than ARMA 2 or ARMA 3 could be withou this system, ask Turkey what happened with their beloved Leo A4s in Syria, they are getting wrecked by RPGs and Cold War wire guided missiles.


So this is everything you need to know about what changed.Use that to improve you gameplay.

TheMasterofBlubb
PVP Warfare Admin
Posts: 393

Re: Teamwork, Realism, imbalances

Post#5 » Mon 10 Sep, 2018 1:02 am

So as a small edition the round of 09.09 about 17.00 i played a gunner in a gorgon with a engineer we survived about 2h pushing the whole game. Used a gorgon wth slat +camo. We got hit aapprox 12 or more times

Grenadier
Community Member
Posts: 70

Re: Teamwork, Realism, imbalances

Post#6 » Wed 23 Jan, 2019 11:44 am

i remember this game , meth lab, ist? you survived because it was lite, without AT titan/vorona.

TheMasterofBlubb
PVP Warfare Admin
Posts: 393

Re: Teamwork, Realism, imbalances

Post#7 » Wed 23 Jan, 2019 8:45 pm

Somehow the team didnt manage to kill us. You still have Titan AT on the Kamysh.

Grenadier
Community Member
Posts: 70

Re: Teamwork, Realism, imbalances

Post#8 » Thu 24 Jan, 2019 12:19 am

omg i told about AT launchers: titan , vorona , not about kamysh,marshall , gorgon. just close this topic

User avatar
Deeelite
Donator
Posts: 679

Re: Teamwork, Realism, imbalances

Post#9 » Sat 26 Jan, 2019 12:24 pm

You see John ? We have no teamplay problems here...

I still can't belive how fast the problems members post to discuss general problems affecting EUTW, do fade out going completely out of topic.

Master & Grana, you gave a good feedback which is, sadly, arma-veterans restricted, opening a new thread, this way.

We don't have enough players here capable to understand what you explained, this is one of the problems John was trying to expose...
"When taking part in a discussion, the most difficult thing is not defending your opinion, but knowing what it is in the first place." André Maurois

TheMasterofBlubb
PVP Warfare Admin
Posts: 393

Re: Teamwork, Realism, imbalances

Post#10 » Sat 26 Jan, 2019 4:09 pm

I understand that the problem is there is basicly no solution but creating a full blown mod. All those stuff i mentioned is basically Arma vanilla. Maybe a Wiki would help. Not sure though how the progress is there

Jack
Community Member
Posts: 6

Re: Teamwork, Realism, imbalances

Post#11 » Mon 28 Jan, 2019 11:07 pm

Remove darters/tayrans, remove titans AT completely

TheMasterofBlubb
PVP Warfare Admin
Posts: 393

Re: Teamwork, Realism, imbalances

Post#12 » Tue 29 Jan, 2019 1:19 am

Removing Titan AT would make all MBTs almost undestroyable... (and the Vorona the only Tandem HEAT)

User avatar
scratch
Community Member
Posts: 968

Re: Teamwork, Realism, imbalances

Post#13 » Tue 29 Jan, 2019 2:01 am

TheMasterofBlubb wrote:Removing Titan AT would make all MBTs almost undestroyable... (and the Vorona the only Tandem HEAT)

It will do helicopters more valuable, and a cas drones, which is pretty good and will make a gameplay deeper involved

From the cas drones could be removed heat camera and a radar as well as an option.
the floor is lava!

TheMasterofBlubb
PVP Warfare Admin
Posts: 393

Re: Teamwork, Realism, imbalances

Post#14 » Tue 29 Jan, 2019 2:35 am

But how much does the drone cost and how fast will it die

Sure you can use them now too and still no one does because you need at least 2 people to properly target and kill with the GBUs

If im correct thats a sum of 45k approx for 2 bombs that 1 hit a tank that costs about 40k.
But you have the risk that you partner misplays .

User avatar
scratch
Community Member
Posts: 968

Re: Teamwork, Realism, imbalances

Post#15 » Tue 29 Jan, 2019 12:39 pm

Cas drones have bomb camera hud, it's very useful to drop the presents exactly into the point. Without any laser designators
the floor is lava!

Jack
Community Member
Posts: 6

Re: Teamwork, Realism, imbalances

Post#16 » Tue 29 Jan, 2019 11:34 pm

TheMasterofBlubb wrote:Removing Titan AT would make all MBTs almost undestroyable... (and the Vorona the only Tandem HEAT)

Well, maaws and vorona are pretty op, I can literally 1shot mora, for example, with HEAT maaws rocket, plus removing titans, as scratch said, will force ppl to use every other option (1st of all counter apc, tanks, then drones, jets, etc...) I didn't see a real apc/tank battles 4 a long time, each time ppl buy APC, it serves as mip or just for camping inf. Now usually in a late game everything goes to 1 single strategy: 3-4 darters eyeballing heat signatures in the sky 900m above and ppl with titans on the mountains. Sooner or later more and more ppl will realise: there is no point to spend your money on tank or apc or attack heli, because you'll die in a late game even before you can drive to the nearest flag. For me arma was always about finding the enemy, checking the horizon for skylining, spotting troops in a bush or forest, to find your enemy before it finds you - this is the idea, and until you see your enemy you feel tension, adrenalin, state of unknowing this is what drives me to play this game (and also a teamwork), darters, as well as titans AT, COMPLETELY remove the whole point of unawareness and this is pretty OP. Arma isn't a fairly balanced game by itself and many problems should be solved, but those 2, as I consider, is the 1st priority.

TheMasterofBlubb
PVP Warfare Admin
Posts: 393

Re: Teamwork, Realism, imbalances

Post#17 » Wed 30 Jan, 2019 2:57 am

Jack wrote:
TheMasterofBlubb wrote:Removing Titan AT would make all MBTs almost undestroyable... (and the Vorona the only Tandem HEAT)

Well, maaws and vorona are pretty op, I can literally 1shot mora, for example, with HEAT maaws rocket


Let me guess : no cage armor? and thats what i mean. If you are using cage armor or even Reactive Armor like in Slammer UP, Kuma or T100 or 140, you are literaly wasting the first rocket completly with the MAAWS and if the Crew is skilled a bit they will give you a different cage part next so you probably lose a second rocket not doing a tiny bit of damage.

The vorona is a Tandem heat just like the Titan (the only difference is range and guidance). The vorona will penetrate a cage and still one shot a mora. But as to the Titan the vorona cant do a top attack.

So a cage or reactive armor is effectively lowers you penetration rate on tandem heat and disables single heat completely. If you have a Kuma for example you have a enourmous front armor (havent testet the new CSAT tank, but it should have even more). (as a Funfact on a distance of higher than approx 2.5km a Kuma cant penetrate a Kuma through the front lower armor with APFSDS, what is exaclty what a Leopard A6 is capable of).
The rework of Heat ammo in arma changed the way how HEAT gets calculated. its effectively getting converted into a HE detonator and a simulated penetrator(that is actually a AP round with higher air friction).
if i remember correct the single HEAT gets a 80mm penetrator the Tandem gets a 180mm one. So after about 2m the penetrator despawns.
Now you have reactive armor that decreases the penetration capability of a heat charge. So at some point a Tandem charge at a bit steeper angle wont penetrate a Kuma front anymore. At this point you can use top attack to minimize the penetarted armor.
Now we have a sneaky missile thats pretty cheap that can even one hit a Mora with a cage: the NLAW. (doent help against Slammer UP and CSAT tanks though they have top reactive armor and NLAW is single HEAT).

So now you have like written somewhere higher in this thread:
A MAAWS / RPG 42 that is versatile and fast to use.
A RPG 7 cheap and dirty but restricted in damage.
A NLAW that is quite short range (~1km) but is capable of one shot a MIP with cage armor or even disable a Tank without top reactive armor and has lock on fire and forget.
A Vorona (Tandem-HEAT) that is limited in range (2km) but has the capability of actually fighting a MBT, but requires you to stay on target till hit.
A Titan AT (Tandem-HEAT) that is not really limited in range (not sure though but its way over 5km). It can lock on and Fire and forget in direct attack and top attack. It can also do a manual guidance but its a differnt one than the vorona.
NOTE: With the smokes on the commander seat you can "flare" away the Locked on the incoming Missile.

The prices are approximately set to those types of pros and cons.
Removing one of the launchers will make a domino effect on the other ones.

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