[Discussion] Why EUTW refuses ticket system?

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Likbjorn
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[Discussion] Why EUTW refuses ticket system?

Post#1 » Thu 17 Aug, 2017 8:20 am

Many times I saw Nyles commenting like "Ticket system is not for EUTW and will never comes here". However, I don't clearly remember why, it lost under many of posts or it even wasn't justified. I would like to get the answer to stay sure we really don't need them ;)

Well, now I see some issues that tickets can easily solve and I don't see no cons (instead of additional scripting. But if you have bank account for each player, will be easy on my dumb-user opinion to make ticket counter for each team... maybe?).
Ticket is common thing in game with respawns which represents reinforcements for each side. You can only lose tickets but never gain new.
First and most important issue tickets solve - stalemates. Only way to win - capture all flags. EUTW team fight for balance and it's very nice. But if teams are even, how can any of them win? That's very hard, so we have 8+ hours games even with not ideally balanced teams. Tickets can be a simple value which definately (and all the time) will only go down and when it comes to 0 - game over. There is no infinite armies in the world, none of them will throw soldiers on death again and again.
Second, players will take care about their (and their comrades) lifes. Medic work will be more requested.

I see good collaboration within tickets&credits system: army sends determined amount of soldier (tickets) with strict objective (capture AO) and sponsor it with credits (if you are going to implement handicap system, it even will be more justified: weaker team must recieve more moneys :D ).
Tickets loses can be defined by many ways and it's another thing to discuss. Player death, tickets bleed with less objectives...
I would be more happy to see "layout was finished in a draw by 0 vs 50 tickets" after 5h more than to win after exhasting 8h when enemy team fully refilled with fresh joiners.
Just remember: more balanced game you do, more time-consuming one layout will go. EUTW needs other ways to finish them.

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Nyles
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Re: [Discussion] Why EUTW refuses ticket system?

Post#2 » Thu 17 Aug, 2017 11:50 am

The major points:

- We have an individual economy system, where players save for equipment and vehicles - sometimes over a very long time. It has to be clearly understandable how a match is going and when a win or lose can be expected so players can choose the right purchase plan for this match. The fewer win conditions there are, the better that overview. Currently, it is whenever one team loses their last sector. If you add a ticket layer on top, it means that the game can be forced to end independently by different mechanics.

- With a ticket system, tactics shift to making the other team bleed more tickets. It's no longer about pushing the frontline to control all sectors, but being the most effective in spamming artillery, CAS, tank camping and lock the other team in place in a battle of attrition. This is not the focus we want.

- The workload to adjust our game rules to such a system would be immense. We feel our time is better spent working on new features, like improved spawning and team balance mechanics, as well as integrating new and upcoming content from BIS, instead of working on a system that will not add much to the game in our view.

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Likbjorn
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Re: [Discussion] Why EUTW refuses ticket system?

Post#3 » Thu 17 Aug, 2017 1:03 pm

To first reason: I agree with that, but player will be able to st up a purchase plan after several games with that feature.
To the second reason: Ticket system is flexible. If you're focus is on capturing objectives, you can implement big penalty for losing the flag. That bigger, that it will be more effective to capture than to kill. For example, 50-100 tickets.
To third one: to balance it you can simply do couple of steps:
- define which factors will affect ticket counter. For me it's player death (1 ticket), lost flag (50-100 tickets), slow bleed when than 1/2 or less of flags controlled.
- define average maximium game duration. For example 4-5 hours.
- overlook stats for death/hour, flag lost/hour and calculate amount of tickets you need for each team.

Major issue for me on EUTW isn't balance - even with loosing team I can get fun. Long game duration is a hell, so I raised this theme. To not create a new topic, can you answer, do you have any other, simplier ideas to avoid infinite warfare in future?

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Nyles
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Re: [Discussion] Why EUTW refuses ticket system?

Post#4 » Thu 17 Aug, 2017 2:09 pm

Infinite warfare comes down primarily to bad layout design. Any attempts on fixing long rounds have to start there.

Danrik
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Re: [Discussion] Why EUTW refuses ticket system?

Post#5 » Thu 17 Aug, 2017 4:07 pm

I like to have the idea of ​​tickets, so rounds will have an end.
But, it would be easiest if the devs / admins put more value on the map layout and thus would prevent maps, which take infinitely long.
In my opinion, it is one of the stupidest ideas to let vote a small part of the community about the map selection. We see the result every day on the servers.

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Likbjorn
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Re: [Discussion] Why EUTW refuses ticket system?

Post#6 » Thu 17 Aug, 2017 4:36 pm

Layout design is a large trouble now, I agree with you. But now layout control is on low level (I understand, you have a lot of things apart). I already created topic about it https://forums.eutw.net/viewtopic.php?f=156&t=6233, but unfortunately I didn't recieve feedback from EUTW team (except the only "should" from you, Nyles). There, in the topic, are my suggestions which basicly aimed on adjusting layout creation rules to not have stalemate-kind layouts. It wasn't taken into account by EUTW team or just shelved till better times, however it's a trouble which directly affects gameplay. We learn from our mistakes, so rules which were set for experimental project of Layout Editor can be adjusted now basing on how it goes.

Sink
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Re: [Discussion] Why EUTW refuses ticket system?

Post#7 » Fri 18 Aug, 2017 3:11 pm

Tbh I like the long matches - I think this issue should solely be fixed with better layouts. A good example of a problematic layout would be Kavala since there are so many places to hide for infantry, making it near impossible to capture objs at times because ppl just hide.

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zef
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Re: [Discussion] Why EUTW refuses ticket system?

Post#8 » Fri 18 Aug, 2017 3:23 pm

I believe that any layout can be resolved in reasonable time if people are willing to work together. Yeah, I know... public server - never gonna happen, can't fix stupid, scouting/defending/... is not fun, etc.

I've seen rounds drag out so many times just because people went into headless-chicken mode, running every which way without any coordination. Shouting 'someone should do this or that'. Reminds me of an old story:

This is a story about four people named Everybody, Somebody, Anybody, and Nobody.
There was an important job to be done and Everybody was asked to do it. Everybody was sure Somebody would do it. Anybody could have done it, but Nobody did it.
Somebody got angry about that, because it was Everybody's job. Everybody thought Anybody could do it but Nobody realized that Everybody wouldn't do it.
It ended up that Everybody blamed Somebody when Nobody did what Anybody could have done.

Bosh
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Re: [Discussion] Why EUTW refuses ticket system?

Post#9 » Fri 18 Aug, 2017 8:56 pm

Nyles wrote:The major points:

- We have an individual economy system, where players save for equipment and vehicles - sometimes over a very long time. It has to be clearly understandable how a match is going and when a win or lose can be expected so players can choose the right purchase plan for this match. The fewer win conditions there are, the better that overview. Currently, it is whenever one team loses their last sector. If you add a ticket layer on top, it means that the game can be forced to end independently by different mechanics.

- With a ticket system, tactics shift to making the other team bleed more tickets. It's no longer about pushing the frontline to control all sectors, but being the most effective in spamming artillery, CAS, tank camping and lock the other team in place in a battle of attrition. This is not the focus we want.

- The workload to adjust our game rules to such a system would be immense. We feel our time is better spent working on new features, like improved spawning and team balance mechanics, as well as integrating new and upcoming content from BIS, instead of working on a system that will not add much to the game in our view.


I agree with you 100% Nyles.

Additionally, I think if you add a ticket system, where the tickets decrease when players die, you will make getting kills more important than it currently is. This will lead to an increase in exploitative behavior and camping.

I think the game mechanics need to curb players' instinct to simply get as many kills as possible which I think the EUTW objective based game play does very effectively. If there is a ticket based system where tickets decrease when players die, there will be no incentive to enter an objective zone - you can easily sit from a distance and pummel it with cannon/mortar etc. and win by depleting the enemy's tickets. The need to capture an objective forces players to occupy this zone.

Essentially, players will instinctively play in order to get the most kills - the mechanics of the game mode need to curb this in order to create an interesting team based atmosphere.

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Likbjorn
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Re: [Discussion] Why EUTW refuses ticket system?

Post#10 » Fri 18 Aug, 2017 9:32 pm

So I said, tickets can be designed in a way where kills gives you less advantage than other tactival dids.

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GiPPO
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Re: [Discussion] Why EUTW refuses ticket system?

Post#11 » Fri 18 Aug, 2017 9:35 pm

Also:

Teams can be unbalanced.
Now imagine if someone is getting into a round just to realize that the his team doesn't have any chance of winning anymore because the tickets are just way too off for his team.

I mean, I get it. Ticket system has its place, it is a system that actually works, but I doubt it would work in PVP Warfare. Although the main problem is the stalemate and the round's length, I either we would have pretty short rounds (think about economy and end-game assets, they wouldn't be present unless we rethink our whole system) or the same longer rounds, but with often one team having a lot less tickets.
Where's the comeback? Why would anyone want to join the team that is already decimated (low tickets) other than not having any other choice?
I think this would either make us to basically change what PVP Warfare is or just give one more thing next to team balance to be frustrated about. Not even talking about the problem of rounds started but not finished then repopulated. I think the Join in Progress players would be the biggest issue.

I think the sudden death mechanism successfully solved the last-objective stalling and actually, I would think a solution similar to that, although I'm not having any concepts or ideas to this at the moment, but I'm also not sure if it's a very big issue (except for some layouts) and that we find the root problem in the core mechanics.

What is the problem that we want to solve here? Let's try to break it down to smaller things:

Is it that teams are not capturing flags at all, being stuck fighting between two objectives (railway bridge is a good example)
Is it the problem that teams take one flag then lose one flag (rinse and repeat), so neither team progresses forward?
Or is it the problem that 5-5 players get into a capture circle and it is not moving up or down?

What do you think, which one is the main problem / biggest cause of this issue?
"If It Isn't Documented, It Doesn't Exist"

Steve0
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Re: [Discussion] Why EUTW refuses ticket system?

Post#12 » Fri 18 Aug, 2017 10:25 pm

GiPPO wrote:Also:
Let's try to break it down to smaller things:

Is it that teams are not capturing flags at all, being stuck fighting between two objectives (railway bridge is a good example)
Is it the problem that teams take one flag then lose one flag (rinse and repeat), so neither team progresses forward?
Or is it the problem that 5-5 players get into a capture circle and it is not moving up or down?

What do you think, which one is the main problem / biggest cause of this issue?


It feels to me that your 2nd point is more frequent (back and forth between points). It's hard to build momentum unless the teams are very unbalanced.

M.O.R
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Re: [Discussion] Why EUTW refuses ticket system?

Post#13 » Sat 19 Aug, 2017 4:18 am

Gippo stated an important point. Endgame assets. That was also a thing that bothered me in the old real cti in Arma 2 . But in there it was really important to cap cities because otherwise no supplies and no upgrades for factories which meant no nice tanks or jets . One thing I figured out lately which has also an influence on the outcome of a round , and I think that is what this whole ticket thing is about , is the usage of these endgame assets. I recently started to play battlefield 2 again and loved the war with tanks apcs cobras and jets. I totally miss that in Arma. I mean it's Arma. Why are these things end game features only? You have to play like two hours to afford a jet which you might lose very quickly depending on how you fly. Wouldn't a round go a totally different kind of way if you would have these assets much earlier? I mean it's Arma or not? Wouldn't you guys love to have a jet much earlier? Or a chopper? Wouldn't that bypass a ticket system? I mean I like Arma and I like you guys and the mission a lot but it is not possible for me anymore to play those endless rounds. Maybe a lot of you guys have so much free time to play an 8 hour round . I personally can't but when I play I also like to have an aircraft or so. All I want to say is, if you're able to build up a nice army earlier, the rounds might end earlier..I know a lot of people that would actually play eutw but they always say no thanks.. Takes too long to get nice gear or a vehicle. I can't play that long.. Sorry I'm half asleep I hope you get what I want to say :)

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Nyles
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Re: [Discussion] Why EUTW refuses ticket system?

Post#14 » Sat 19 Aug, 2017 5:42 am

Because then it would just be gameplay with those vehicles. Infantry would not matter as much as they do right now.

I am sure there are great jet fight missions, but if jets would be easy to afford, we would only see them and no other vehicles. Gameplay would be reduced to them anything else would simply not be purchased.

Now, if jets were restricted, what other unit would take its place as the cheap affordable dominator? Attack helicopters, followed by armed transport helicopters with rockets, followed by main battle tanks, followed by APCs/AAAs, followed by MRAPs and then eventually infantry.

There is always one unit that - if unchecked - will dominate the others. Using armour while a heli with ATGMs is in the air is suicide. However once there are rarely helis or not all, tanks would rule the battlefield.

Our approach is that we focus on infantry and treat any vehicle as a precious commodity you can only afford once in a while.

With 60 players there are overall still enough vehicles coming in, but they are rare and special, breaking things up enough to be game changers, but most of the time don't disrupt and dominate the game for too long.

You can see the problem usually when the apex predator, the jets arrive, as there is little else than another jet which can stop them. Most of the time they dominate until they have to resupply, giving you a new window to traverse the battlefield.

M.O.R
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Re: [Discussion] Why EUTW refuses ticket system?

Post#15 » Sat 19 Aug, 2017 10:55 am

I mean you could limit them maybe? Similar to bf2 max 2 jets and a chopper are airborne and it works. People do the inf job too because not everybody likes to fly. But I do get your point. I only see the time factor. I just can't play a round for five hours anymore. So I'm forced to play another game. Or I'm one of those guys we all talk about. Hop in, don't care about the outcome of the round , don't care about team play. Spend some money and leave again.

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zef
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Re: [Discussion] Why EUTW refuses ticket system?

Post#16 » Sat 19 Aug, 2017 11:34 am

MOR has an excellent point concerning time. It does take quite a while to get to the fun part of a mach. It's like we have to grind for an hour or two until we have enough money for the kit we want.

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Nyles
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Re: [Discussion] Why EUTW refuses ticket system?

Post#17 » Sat 19 Aug, 2017 12:04 pm

Which in a way is one of the cornerstones of the game mode. The time investment is part of it, it makes you care about that vehicle and gives you an in-game progression. This round you specialize as a machinegunner, another round you save for a tank. You can't have it all, you have to choose.

It's not unlike dayz or other games, where no-one would expect to start the game fully kitted out. It's the grind to make you consider options and ultimately care about what you've worked towards. With vehicles, it adds fear of loss and prevents spammy, reckless behavior.

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Re: [Discussion] Why EUTW refuses ticket system?

Post#18 » Sat 19 Aug, 2017 12:45 pm

For me multiplayer games are similar to sports. You have some rules to follow, an amount of players, and the team that plays better wins.

Red orchestra was a game that I liked a lot.

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Nyles
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Re: [Discussion] Why EUTW refuses ticket system?

Post#19 » Sat 19 Aug, 2017 1:06 pm

Yes, RO was great, except that most of the time you had to be a rifleman with a simple bolt-action (which was realistic) but no chance to customize your loadout to your playstyle. It was rare for you to be a specialist, like being able to take a machinegun or sniper, or even a vehicle. It was all down to chance with no sense of control how you want to develop.

Battlefield chose the other extreme of simply not caring how many players of a class there are. Be what you want to be, no limitations (as long as you grind the meta to unlock the weapons and attachments across weeks of play.)

Counter-strike or Crysis Power Struggle are similar to us in the way that money is used to limit the player's choices and make him progress within a match, but of course the round lengths are very short, so it's less of a grind.

With PVP Warfare, we borrow from CTI progression with long rounds and a strong gear and vehicle grind (except that we don't have a research-basebuilding layer to govern unlocks.)

Still, spending an hour or more before you can field a main battle tank or other end-game units with the potential to be dominating game changers, takes time. This keeps these units in check, which again, would rule the battlefield and kill variety and tactical gameplay otherwise.

Limiting the number of units per type just gets us closer to the issues like in RO or even BF, where the 'wrong' guy blocks an important vehicle. In our case, everybody can be that person eventually.

Everything happens for a reason. :)

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zef
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Re: [Discussion] Why EUTW refuses ticket system?

Post#20 » Sat 19 Aug, 2017 1:49 pm

Nyles, I wasn't talking about a universal soldier kind of grind, I'm talking just about infantry gear. I personally rarely go for vehicles, I'd rather invest in rifle/scope/vest etc.

I understand your 'prevent reckless behavior' sentiment and all that logic, but your posts here and those regarding critical hits in the other thread made me wonder - do you even play on EUTW servers?
Because, with all due respect, it seems like you don't know what you are talking about. Your intentions are good, your logic is mostly good, but it doesn't seem you are in touch with reality.
I do apologize for being so blunt, it is in no way my intent to belittle your efforts or anything, just take this as an observation from someone who spends relatively long hours in the game.

esfumato
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Re: [Discussion] Why EUTW refuses ticket system?

Post#21 » Sat 19 Aug, 2017 2:13 pm

Nyles wrote:Yes, RO was great, except that most of the time you had to be a rifleman with a simple bolt-action (which was realistic) but no chance to customize your loadout to your playstyle. It was rare for you to be a specialist, like being able to take a machinegun or sniper, or even a vehicle. It was all down to chance with no sense of control how you want to develop.


Yes, and when you played a lot in Red Orchestra people managed to use the bolt-action rifles with a mastery and deadly eficiency that make you love those shitty rifles!

That is what I mean, this thing about shopping your favorite weapon in your favourite colour... all weapons kills, that is not so important that you have to choose your weapon... just join a team, pick up a free slot, and try your best with the specific equipment that you have.

Because if you allow everyone to have what they want at anytime they will go so lazy and don't make the effort to learn the game.

They just have they sniper rifle, go prone out of the flags, and leave in 20 minutes. who cares of winning?

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Nyles
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Re: [Discussion] Why EUTW refuses ticket system?

Post#22 » Sat 19 Aug, 2017 2:46 pm

To answer your question, yes I do play a lot. Otherwise I wouldn't work on this project anymore. Let's just agree to disagree, zef.

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zef
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Re: [Discussion] Why EUTW refuses ticket system?

Post#23 » Sat 19 Aug, 2017 3:40 pm

Of course, that's your prerogative. I thought we could discuss the different opinions we have, but guess not.

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Nyles
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Re: [Discussion] Why EUTW refuses ticket system?

Post#24 » Sat 19 Aug, 2017 4:15 pm

Don't know what else there is to discuss about different opinions when you basically tell me I am out of touch with reality and don't know what I am talking about?

Doesn't sound much like a discussion now does it?

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Likbjorn
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Re: [Discussion] Why EUTW refuses ticket system?

Post#25 » Sat 19 Aug, 2017 10:09 pm

GiPPO wrote:4
Is it that teams are not capturing flags at all, being stuck fighting between two objectives (railway bridge is a good example)
Is it the problem that teams take one flag then lose one flag (rinse and repeat), so neither team progresses forward?

Those are 2 issues for me. It depends on layout which of them dominate.

I should say I'm already not talking about tickets - you provided good arguments, expecially that it will significally change gameplay and player's attitude to the game. We want to make EUTW better, but not to transform it into unknown.

Next words are written considering nicely BALANCED teams and thereafter stalemate case.

@Nyles. You are talking about that time investement is important on EUTW. Yes, it's base of EUTW and it's good.
However you need less than 4h30m to buy most expensive jet in game for 66k. You can speed it up to 2x times if you fight good.
It's enough for jet pilot to fly around 1h to get his fun. So, maximum time EUTW layout should be played before it becomes boring - 5h30min. You need to differ time investement and time of fun gameplay. Games that last more than that time become just monotone, although as player I want to start something new, because that growth from start is what I want, I like to have something to grow to. I often finish my gameplay on loosing gunship or jet because that was what I invested to and I don't want to invest so much time again when infantry doesn't dominate anymore. You lose your progress which didn't help team much and get dissapointed.
On Lite layout it can be even worse: there are less things to save up on, so you get less fun from investing your time in sense of credits balance. You gain top gear and get dissapointed because your progress stopped.
And here comes another trouble: tired players from both teams leave and balance randomly changes. Recently loosing team gets fresh unequipped players on other side. We call it teeter-totter, because it seems to be not a stalemate from aside, but it actually is.

We can also have different opinions, because russian players recive more fun from end of the game than european. Lose or win doesn't matter, you feel strong after victory or you learn from your fails after lose. I don't get much fun when my progress stops and layout progress is also comes to zero.

Whether it will be additional game-end condition, layout creation rules adjustements or balancing tweaks, we need something to limit average time of playing one layout.
I'm for layout creation rules. I suggested that at least 3 objectives (better mostly 4, I mean 2 from one side, 2 from other) must be engaged in game at the same time to give more freedom and flexibility to the game. Even in case of stalemate we'll have different ways to play, providing players to take a fresh breath after they'll tired to push same flag again and again.

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