critical hit

PVP Warfare forum for discussion, suggestions, and bug reporting for current and upcoming versions
M.O.R
Banned
Posts: 1008

critical hit

Post#1 » Thu 03 Aug, 2017 9:53 pm

Is it only me or does it feel like the amount of crits is pretty high now?! I highly doubt that basically everybody is doing headshots only..I mean if you hold your face into a window frame and get shot in the face, no prob, but 5.56 spray from 200m and critical hit?! Feels really weird these days..but might be just me..no clue

User avatar
Nyles
EUTW Management
Posts: 3370

Re: critical hit

Post#2 » Thu 03 Aug, 2017 10:34 pm

Look at your body damage indicator when it happens.

Also, crits got reduced lately by excluding teamkills.

User avatar
GiPPO
EUTW Management
Posts: 7135

Re: critical hit

Post#3 » Fri 04 Aug, 2017 12:12 am

I think I mentioned this earlier.

How we detect headshots might not be the best we will ever have.
We check for head damage at death. This means even a pistol can yield a critical hit if the head was damaged enough before, and a big caliber bullet shot to the chest (which kind of damages around the hit area as well) can do this as well.
Possible solution would be to check the hits themselves and only use direct hits. This would only eliminate the high caliber and explosion criticals though. Haven't tested this yet, but if I understand it correctly, it can work.

5.56mm spray from 200m can hit the head, it's not impossible. A 7.62 penetrating a 1-2 walls can hit the head as well. Sure it won't do a lot of damage but if your head is already damaged enough, it might make enough damage to bring it down completely.

Another possible problem: there might be some frames when you are dead but your body is still vulnerable. It may be possible to get killing shot to chest, but the remaining bullets still hitting your head resulting a critical hit. Ideally, the player sets himself invulnerable right after death, but in reality and multiplayer this might have some delay.
Note that I'm haven't tested if this is the case, I just assume it it can happen. This can be eliminated by using handleDamage EH, which will probably come along with our full revive system rework sometime.


TLDR: yes, there could be a better detection, but a 5.56mm spray can still critical hit you.
"If It Isn't Documented, It Doesn't Exist"

User avatar
Likbjorn
PVP Warfare Dev
Posts: 1059

Re: critical hit

Post#4 » Fri 04 Aug, 2017 9:03 am

Critical hit feature seems to be realistic feature, but from gameplay side I see more troubles from cons than pleasures from pros. Discussion of this trouble is lost in many of forum threads, so it's hard to stack all opinions in one heap.
What's are pros of critical hit?
+ Spirit of realism!
+ No more one squad army. It's no more possible to infinitely revive each other in bunker.
+ You can be sure enemy will not be revived when it's really important.
Bit of statistics:
* Around 30% of kills are critical now. It's only about infantry TK.
Cons:
- Getting criticaly hit absolutely doesn't depend on your actions. It's just random or enemy's skill.
- Playing with your squad back to back you have no chance to be revived after critical even if your comrade was close. You need to regroup with squad after a small mistake or random engagement.
- Very frustrating for lots of players.

It affects more on squads than on lonely wolfs. I think that critical hit mechanics must be reworked to provide better gameplay. I see different ways to do it:
- Critical hit doesn't kill, but only medic is capable to heal this kind of injuries. Maybe it should take more time and provide higher reward for medic. If so, "Drag" option will be justified as you will revive longer time than drag to cover.
- No critical hit at combat, but ability to "finish" WIA players. Therefore, if you have cover and teammate nearby chances to survive are higher.

In addition to both of these, you can implement similar to Squad/BF4 mechanics: if player was revived not so long time ago, he will get critical hit anyways. Stay safe if you just returned from heavens. In Squad this cooldown is set to 60 seconds and it's a good gameplay idea.

M.O.R
Banned
Posts: 1008

Re: critical hit

Post#5 » Fri 04 Aug, 2017 9:18 am

I will camp more from now on. I mean I buy the über helmet on opfor with level 5 and still get critical way too often. And I do understand all of liks points. I can only say again when you introduced that feature the amount was much lower than it is today..

Baret
Community Member
Posts: 461

Re: critical hit

Post#6 » Fri 04 Aug, 2017 6:08 pm

I would like to share my opinion on this topic, too. I share Likbjorn's opinion. This feature really kills coordinated squad play. I had some games playing together with 4-5 people but every attack is almost instantly over when the first 2 people get killed by a crit. It is frustrating. Especially when enemies start spamming around with grenade launchers.
Another point not yet mentioned is that it is not a way a soldier should be rewarded. Of course it is "realistic", that you "die" when you get a headshot, but I think we don't need to talk about realism considering any revive system. The problem I see is that you reward people for shooting (and therefor aiming) for the head of the enemy. Ususally you should aim for the center of mass so you have a better chance of hitting. From that perspective the feature makes no sense.

I also like the suggestions Likbjorn makes. Let the first kill never be a crit, enable it after you got revived. Or give it a timeout after a revive, like he said.

@Gippo: Are there any chances you are going to rework/disable that feature in the near future/for the next version? Or are you not going to put any more work in it because you are working on the revive system and it would tackle the whole topic anyways?

User avatar
GiPPO
EUTW Management
Posts: 7135

Re: critical hit

Post#7 » Fri 04 Aug, 2017 6:28 pm

Baret wrote:@Gippo: Are there any chances you are going to rework/disable that feature in the near future/for the next version? Or are you not going to put any more work in it because you are working on the revive system and it would tackle the whole topic anyways?


Along with the whole revive system it will be revisited (rewritten from the scratch probably). At least that's my plan, but no ETA. The next big things will be team balance and spawn rework.
Maybe sooner, depending on how easily we can tweak it in the current form.
"If It Isn't Documented, It Doesn't Exist"

User avatar
Nyles
EUTW Management
Posts: 3370

Re: critical hit

Post#8 » Fri 04 Aug, 2017 6:46 pm

Crit also is exactly what you have indentified further above: A counter to organized squads dominating the game through constant revives and them basically being near impossible to wipe. Combine that with team stacking and the frustration will be with the team lacking an organized squad, which happens in most
rounds due to the public server space.

It is also the only way how certain HE weapons like artillery and high-powered autocannons can be effective to clear sectors without the last survivor picking everybody back up once the show is over.

I understand it can be frustrating, but it is exactly for that fear to die, why players are carful and don't just run in mindlessly, expecting a guaranteed revive.

We can always review the effectiveness of crits, like we did recently by excluding friendly kills, but you have to accept this system for its intended harshness. One wrong step and you are gone.

User avatar
Likbjorn
PVP Warfare Dev
Posts: 1059

Re: critical hit

Post#9 » Fri 04 Aug, 2017 8:32 pm

Nyles wrote:One wrong step and you are gone.

Here lies the trouble, Nyles. It's not player who makes wrong step, it's a large random foot which smashes him down.
I'm for critical hits as gameplay and balancing feature, however it must not ruin gameplay of sertain groups of people (organised squads). Plus, it's a bit weird and not fair: you can suffer infinite lethal injuries and be revived after, but one single headshot sends you back to base. Here comes up an idea to either remove revive system at all or make critical hits just harder to deal with.
I made some suggestions about critical hit mechanics. They make this feature less frustrating, however player still remains vulnerable to death (as WIA state isn't death for sure).
Group without medic (or with killed one) won't stay long like it won't now regardless chosen of suggested implementations. Arty strike also will remain effective. I like most here medic exclusive long reviving after critical hit and "able to be revived" cooldown. Medic will have also higher demand on battlefield.

User avatar
Nyles
EUTW Management
Posts: 3370

Re: critical hit

Post#10 » Fri 04 Aug, 2017 8:45 pm

None of these changes are easy to implement or on top of our priority list, but like I said before, we can look into the crit ruleset as long as it remains harsh. It's the whole point of it. If organized squads get too much of an advantage, it will cause other issues to team balance and amplify existing problems.

Some changes to medics sound reasonable, like suppressing crits while medics are nearby, but the consequences need to be discussed further. We might reject this, if it empowers organized squads too much.

User avatar
Likbjorn
PVP Warfare Dev
Posts: 1059

Re: critical hit

Post#11 » Fri 04 Aug, 2017 9:06 pm

Thanks for reply.
I understand your public server policy where every lone player is welcome, but Arma is about team- (and squad- in particular)play. Players shouldn't have bonuses for joining squad except teamwork they get, but also they must not have obstales to operate as a squad. Critical hit now causes it much.
I hope you review my (or anyone else) suggestions and will find neat solution of this problem.

User avatar
scratch
Community Member
Posts: 968

Re: critical hit

Post#12 » Fri 04 Aug, 2017 10:26 pm

there should be much more critical hits than currently. because its realistic. like amraam. fucking double standarts
the floor is lava!

CertainDeath
Community Member
Posts: 138

Re: critical hit

Post#13 » Sat 05 Aug, 2017 12:33 am

When i play EUTW with my Squad, my experience is, that we get split up after a while, and even fight on different flags, because of issuses.
So the Crits do their job. You more often play with randoms, and have to learn to play with them. Thats teamplay too. Some newer guys in my Squad do not understand that and often ask to stay together.

So we do not go to EUTW to train Squadplay. I say to my mates, that EUTW is good training for FoE recognisment, train movement in field and get aware of enviroment. Not for tactical training.

Would be nice to train more tactical, but as Nyles said. Certain Squads would get OP. And as i play solo more often, then with my mates, thats a fact that i appreciate. randoms have to learn to play with randoms. System is fine and does what it should.

But i also recognised, that the amount of crits is a bit too high.
OPT: CSAT SQL of Recon Squad "Bravo"
http://www.operation-pandora.de/

esfumato
Donator
Posts: 315

Re: critical hit

Post#14 » Sat 05 Aug, 2017 8:24 am

I have no video proof. But I suspect that EUTW is being recently filled with aimbotters.

I see too often snipers that one shot you at really hard situations. Like one shot you in a short sprint from 800 meters distance.

Or bullets that go slightly off around some players.

I saw once, one player being killed by tracer bullets that appeared 5 meters above him.

Something that was really wierd.

Toma
Community Member
Posts: 98

Re: critical hit

Post#15 » Sun 06 Aug, 2017 10:45 pm

esfumato wrote:I have no video proof. But I suspect that EUTW is being recently filled with aimbotters.

I see too often snipers that one shot you at really hard situations. Like one shot you in a short sprint from 800 meters distance.

Or bullets that go slightly off around some players.

I saw once, one player being killed by tracer bullets that appeared 5 meters above him.

Something that was really wierd.

That is hack not good sniper :banghead:

M.O.R
Banned
Posts: 1008

Re: critical hit

Post#16 » Mon 07 Aug, 2017 11:02 pm

guys, seriously...That insane amount of crits is starting to piss me off..and there's no logic in it..i'm crit with full HP from 5.56 spray and I survive HE round with 80HP left?? I mean we already got revive, which is so realistic..because you can do the vodoo shaman dance around your mate and he's alive again..But then there's the critical hit...So either remove the revive, or the crit..or make crits on headshots only like it was before when you introduced it for the first time...The way it is right now is just lame..

User avatar
Nyles
EUTW Management
Posts: 3370

Re: critical hit

Post#17 » Mon 07 Aug, 2017 11:13 pm

MOR seriously, nothing has changed with crits recently, except that we made them appear less by excluding friendly fire.

Like I mentioned above, look at your body damage indicator when you get killed and observe what parts are red. It will be either the full body (most likely from an explosion) or the head (from a headshot, duh!) and in some cases a hit on the upper torso and head (i.e. hits from a heavy caliber weapon like the Kir or .50cal sometimes do that)

M.O.R
Banned
Posts: 1008

Re: critical hit

Post#18 » Tue 08 Aug, 2017 1:20 am

I don't know man I see a lot of people saying the same thing on the servers. Today with our squad .. Went to flags and most of the time we had criticals. I have to be much more careful then and camp much more. Because right now there is no fun

User avatar
Nyles
EUTW Management
Posts: 3370

Re: critical hit

Post#19 » Tue 08 Aug, 2017 1:55 am

again, observe the body hit indicator on the hud for some matches and then report back, if you notice anything that cannot be explained by having the conditions mentioned above.

M.O.R
Banned
Posts: 1008

Re: critical hit

Post#20 » Tue 08 Aug, 2017 7:32 am

I will

User avatar
zef
Community Member
Posts: 313

Re: critical hit

Post#21 » Tue 08 Aug, 2017 12:04 pm

As I noted in the UGL (ab)use thread, with the new critical logic, UGL is the way to go - spam GLs, damage the enemy (if not kill), and then finish off with a hit to the pinky toe :)
A little exaggerated, but you get the point :D

M.O.R
Banned
Posts: 1008

Re: critical hit

Post#22 » Tue 08 Aug, 2017 2:11 pm

I saw that the reloading speed of the AK12 GL is fucking insane man..How fast is that plz?? :D Bergen Backpack and 50 GLs :)

User avatar
Nyles
EUTW Management
Posts: 3370

Re: critical hit

Post#23 » Tue 08 Aug, 2017 5:26 pm

zef wrote:As I noted in the UGL (ab)use thread, with the new critical logic, UGL is the way to go


What *new* critical logic is that, please?

User avatar
Likbjorn
PVP Warfare Dev
Posts: 1059

Re: critical hit

Post#24 » Tue 08 Aug, 2017 8:08 pm

Nyles, a question. How do we check body damage if we instantly get black screen or respawn timer (sometimes without crithit message)?

User avatar
Nyles
EUTW Management
Posts: 3370

Re: critical hit

Post#25 » Tue 08 Aug, 2017 11:19 pm

You see it right before.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 13 guests