WARNING: Make sure you have everything polished or else...

Discussion, Help, and Mission Presentation forum for the PVP Warfare Mission Tool
3Hugger
Community Member
Posts: 242

WARNING: Make sure you have everything polished or else...

Post#1 » Thu 09 May, 2019 11:58 am

Most layouts submitted by the community are interesting at best, some are very promising at first glance, but NEVER, not even once, have I opened a submitted layout that met all the guidelines and rules.

If you want to submit a layout: make sure you have everything spot on, dotted all your i's and crossed every t.

Check and recheck, as when we will check your layout, we will have to do the same, while we do not know what you exactly made, it will cost us similar or more time then you have spend on the layout. And this is BEFORE we integrate the layout, because after a check up we are not done, we will end up having to maintain and support the layout, sometimes costing several full time weeks for a hand full or even a single layout!

So if you did not try to put in your maximum effort, why should we bother to try to implement your layout, if it is much easier for us to create higher quality layouts in less time, which we do not have to triple check, as it will be on a higher level from the get go?

We, like you, have limited time, perform these tasks in our sparse free time, so if you are not providing the very best, your layout has zero to no chance of getting adopted.

Why?
We have more high quality and a bigger variety of layouts that meet a higher set of rules and guidelines then ever before.
We still get negative feedback, because players do not like to spend hours playing anything less then the best and even then may still complain, while polishing to such a level of detail costs us far more (free!) time and effort then an average player actually plays on a specific layout.

The cost benefit ratio is therefor off.

While we have sufficient high quality layouts and a lot of variation (practically every region of the islands are used in one or more layouts), new layouts need to top these to be able to be high quality AND interesting (different) enough to be worth it binning a layout that we invested on hours upon hours to get the everything on par.

This being besides the maximum amount of energy and time we are able to spend on actually maintaining the layouts. Time and energy that goes from anything else we could have done with this time.

So when you have a great idea, guess again, is it? Really? Does it meet all the rules, does it outperform the current layouts on the server, layouts you have seen in the past AND the layouts in the pipeline? Are you willing to spend a lot of hours (days at an end) to make sure this is the layout EVERYONE wants to play and nobody will complain about? Well you are probably wrong, so overthink it again, is it really the best of the best and you know there is not a better layout out there? Does it beat everything you ever played and you played them all? GREAT,... consider actually making it. Else you are probably better of joining the servers and enjoy what is already there, because if it does not get adopted, you may have spend countless hours for nothing and may have wasted many hours for us as well, hours we all could have spend better.

:twak: So either offer the best of the best or else..... :bangin:

:cheers:

ps: you really made it through this post and still like to spend countless hours maintaining and polishing and you know you have it in you and you seem to like it more and more and it is your life's goal to get every thing spot on and make any EUTW layout the best there is and see fixes and improvements for all and every layout out there? And you are still reading these very small letters,... so you may indeed want to adsorb every detail!? Well,.. you are likely to be either on drugs, may like rejection, or you may be a dedicated tech savvy unicorn (whom still may be on drugs), come out and play!
Last edited by 3Hugger on Sat 11 May, 2019 10:30 am, edited 2 times in total.

3Hugger
Community Member
Posts: 242

Re: WARNING: Make sure you have everything polished or else...

Post#2 » Thu 09 May, 2019 3:44 pm

So you want to make or already have made the most perfect layout you can think of and now what?

Look at it again, and ask yourself some questions:
- Is it a layout that actually is fitting in the rotation? (regular/lite/island/region/style)
- Why is your layout better then what already exists?
- Does it beat at least half the existing layouts, not only according to you, but according to popular beliefs as well?
- Is it original?
- Is it too original?
- Why didn't other layouts do this?
- Is it of the highest possible quality?
- Do I really meet all or practically all demands and suggestions according to best practices?
- Does the layout has similarities to other layouts in current or recent past rotation sets?
- What is the additional value of the layout versus what already exists, or is in the making by others?
- Does the layout has similarities to other layouts that were binned, rejected, or ignored?
- Do the complaints you heard before about other layouts in the current or any former rotation set, apply to your layout?
- Is your layout better in each and every way?
:scratch:

If the layout is lacking somewhere it may require rework, polishing or even requires to be scrapped, because if the layout is less then what it could be, your layout has probably very little chance of even being taken under consideration. :banghead:

The value of your layout to a future rotation should be significant. :bouncy:

If you have all the right answers and can only come to 1 conclusion: :redblob:
Then you have a chance to be adopted into the a potential future rotation update.

You did it?
You made it so far you think you passed all questions, followed all guidelines and best practices?
:signed:

Then where are you waiting for? Present that masterpiece layout! :bigthumb:

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Deathicael
Community Member
Posts: 116

Re: WARNING: Make sure you have everything polished or else...

Post#3 » Fri 10 May, 2019 10:01 pm

because everything you've done is "perfect" :roll: most of the "High Quality" I've seen in your maps looks like a manifestation of a Salvador Dali painting in Arma. I get it you have a monopoly on the map rotation because you've been left in charge and that shows in the sheer amount of your maps that dont seem to have been vetted by anyone else in EUTW that you've uploaded to the server rotation.
"Never attribute to Malice that which can easily be explained by Stupidity" - Hanlon's Razor :nuts:

3Hugger
Community Member
Posts: 242

Re: WARNING: Make sure you have everything polished or else...

Post#4 » Sat 11 May, 2019 9:41 am

To make clear why this thread: First and foremost, EUTW members are all volunteers. Every minute spend on your layout, could have been spend on something else, let's say actually enjoying the layouts on the server. ;)

And while there is no need for your layout, as there are sufficient layouts to go around, you are being offered the opportunity to submit layouts anyway.

So when you upload your layout for EUTW to check and correct and then to potentially spend countless hours on maintaining it, for you, so you can play it, you are asked to do your best, before expecting EUTW to dedicate time to it.

I assume your reaction:
Deathicael wrote:because everything you've done is "perfect" :roll: most of the "High Quality" I've seen in your maps looks like a manifestation of a Salvador Dali painting in Arma. I get it you have a monopoly on the map rotation because you've been left in charge and that shows in the sheer amount of your maps that dont seem to have been vetted by anyone else in EUTW that you've uploaded to the server rotation.

(Can you please point to the feedback you gave, which hasn't been followed up on?)

Then to follow your signature reads:
"Never attribute to Malice that which can easily be explained by Stupidity" - Hanlon's Razor :nuts:


Is based on my feedback on your layout: [WIP] Double Helix Ver 1.2
Which you present with the following written:
Description: Refreshing my old map from over a year ago, It's 2:14am right now so I'm just hoping I placed everything right :spineyes: Suggestions are always welcome, I'm also considering adding two outlying points that connect to the 4 inner points and possibly adding more connections to the center as well feel free to do a paint mockup of any connections or points you'd like to see done.

With an emphasis:
...Suggestions are always welcome...

And to which you received the reply:
3Hugger wrote:Please make sure that you follow the guidelines, based on the first impression there is work to do.

[Guide] Some common mistakes/issues
Layout Creation Guidelines and Rules
WARNING: Make sure you have everything polished or else...
And see all comments made on other layout threads recently.

The latest rules overrule the former.

The title of the thread states 'new layout' instead of [WIP], so based on this, the layout 'as is' would be rejected for not abiding to the best practices.

Just to be sure: if this is your reaction to a 'mild negative reaction', then perhaps under the light of the community feedback you could reconsider to share layouts with the community.
:cheers:

Just to emphasize, the layouts in the rotation do meet the guidelines & follow best practices, if they don't then please report where you encounter problems.

Hidden Text
About your layout, based on your previews one can conclude that you clearly did not follow the guidelines, perhaps even you did not read them?
And as stated in your layout thread: you posted your layout as 'new layout' and not as 'wip'. Based on this nobody spend time to try to explain to you what is wrong the layout, as the information you need is already available on the forum.

Based on your reaction, why would anyone spend time on any layout from anyone else, if it the designer did not try to spend their share of time and effort? Perhaps you would appreciate the layouts in the rotation better, if you would understand what makes them being inside the rotation, while yours is not.

Perhaps ask (or study) other designers whose layouts did make the rotation, ask them what has been changed to their layout since they made it and why they think what changes had to be made for what reason?

Either way, although by this post it may seem it opened the door to your layout being discussed here, this is not the intention of this thread: please place reactions of the layout being discussed in the respective thread: [WIP] Double Helix Ver 1.2.

As this reply is to provide an example to underline the information of this thread, not to give feedback on the layout itself, as that belongs in the aforementioned thread.

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Deathicael
Community Member
Posts: 116

Re: WARNING: Make sure you have everything polished or else...

Post#5 » Sun 12 May, 2019 7:18 am

Message received, dont waste my time actually working on anything because you wont approve or implement anything that wasn't made by you because you're an egomaniac, got it.

By the way my layout was worked on by Gippo, an actual EUTW member, when it was first drafted. You're not only belittling my work, you're belittling his as well.
"Never attribute to Malice that which can easily be explained by Stupidity" - Hanlon's Razor :nuts:

3Hugger
Community Member
Posts: 242

Re: WARNING: Make sure you have everything polished or else...

Post#6 » Sun 12 May, 2019 11:17 am

Deathicael wrote:Message received, dont waste my time actually working on anything because you wont approve or implement anything that wasn't made by you because you're an egomaniac, got it.

By the way my layout was worked on by Gippo, an actual EUTW member, when it was first drafted. You're not only belittling my work, you're belittling his as well.

"Never attribute to Malice that which can easily be explained by Stupidity" - Hanlon's Razor :nuts:

:kiss:

Or,.. you could step up, try to do a better job, try to understand what the guidelines are and find out if these apply and why?
And I may try to ignore the repeated personal assumptions. (Try to stick to facts.)
:cheers:

I understand that the rules and guidelines posted so far may be very confusing and contradicting, hence the advice to try to understand them and grasp the general intention of them, as these are guidelines which do develop over time, as the game changes, the game literally changes,...

What was okay 3 years back, won't stand a chance with today's standards.

All the feedback we have been requesting and all the small updates and tweaks we made to the layouts are being done for a reason. For an existing layout, with a lot of time and energy already invested in it, if it does not meet specs any longer, one may,.. maybe,.. spend some additional time and alter and tweak until the layout does meet demands once again, or,.. the layout gets binned.
However if a new presented layout does not meet the minimum demands, it gets rejected immediately.
As there is no point of investing in layouts that do not meet the minimum requirements.

Especially as there are many layouts already that do meet the requirements and despite maximum effort, these still get negative feedback. (From which most often there is no foundation given, even if the voice of negativity is directly requested to provide additional details! See the above posts ;) for a quick fact check.)
Request for additional feedback:
(Can you please point to the feedback you gave, which hasn't been followed up on?)

Answer:
...

A mere silence.

It is a matter of logic.

So either step up or don't, but don't expect others to do your work for you: you finish a layout that meets the current demands AND that has the premise of offering sufficient additional value to what is already in stock, then maybe,.... maybe,.... someone else will be inspired to also invest in your layout,... did I say .... maybe?
:signed:

Hidden Text
PS: Do you notice the amount of time and words spend in the above posts, by which writer, can you come to an ratio?

Do you notice the intend behind the words of each post?

As time is our only true commodity, this may be taken into account: time spend on certain person or layout vs. outcome in positive results.

Feel free to read again with this in mind and self fulfilling prophesies may arise.


Hidden Text
@Deathicael: You don't have to read this, it is up to you. But I do want to give you a chance to read some opposition to your behavior, solely for future expectations.

You received a lot of developer time, that could have been spend on improving EUTW, other layout designers, or anything. Check how many layouts I have presented on the forum and how many reactions you gave on them. Then compare this with what you state in your own posts and how I react to you. Then count the amount of reactions you got from me, since I am actively contributing as EUTW admin, on the amount of layouts posted by you in that same time frame. Check how you address me and how much time you have spend fact checking your arguments.

I understand you have not all data, but try to extrapolate how much time actually has been spend by others on their layouts.

Your behavior is your choice and may affect others.

How you influence your world is up to you, it's your world after all.

User avatar
GiPPO
EUTW Management
Posts: 7132

Re: WARNING: Make sure you have everything polished or else...

Post#7 » Sun 12 May, 2019 7:32 pm

I think 3Hugger went a bit overboard with this post. Sure, there are some low quality layouts here and there but it's not really at that extent 3Hugger says. Either way, I do not support this kind of tone.
"If It Isn't Documented, It Doesn't Exist"

3Hugger
Community Member
Posts: 242

Re: WARNING: Make sure you have everything polished or else...

Post#8 » Mon 13 May, 2019 10:13 am

As the time & energy required to push things forward for EUTW is for me out of balance,
I hereby resign for being an EUTW admin.

Good luck moving forward.

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sEi
Donator
Posts: 369

Re: WARNING: Make sure you have everything polished or else...

Post#9 » Mon 13 May, 2019 1:38 pm

3Hugger wrote:As the time & energy required to push things forward for EUTW is for me out of balance,
I hereby resign for being an EUTW admin.

Good luck moving forward.


Please dont - You are doing a good job and are much appreciated.

Being admin you have to withstand all sorts of opinions and difficulties, criticism and stuff.

About arma map edits/making then i primary wanted to restart the eutw wiki for that kind of info. There it is possible to put all the important nits and bits for the aspiring map maker. The wiki will be re-started very soon, as i am in communication with Vicious about starting/seeding it.

I know how it is when you know the important details about a project and you try to tell the community about them and they either ignore them or bitching about it. When the wiki is up you/we can write the info there and 'slowly' filter out the emotionel and demanding stuff so only pure valuable clear information is left.

Hope you reconsider your decision as your work here is super.

/sEi

3Hugger
Community Member
Posts: 242

Re: WARNING: Make sure you have everything polished or else...

Post#10 » Wed 15 May, 2019 8:55 am

sEi wrote:Please dont - You are doing a good job and are much appreciated.

Being admin you have to withstand all sorts of opinions and difficulties, criticism and stuff.

About arma map edits/making then i primary wanted to restart the eutw wiki for that kind of info. There it is possible to put all the important nits and bits for the aspiring map maker. The wiki will be re-started very soon, as i am in communication with Vicious about starting/seeding it.

I know how it is when you know the important details about a project and you try to tell the community about them and they either ignore them or bitching about it. When the wiki is up you/we can write the info there and 'slowly' filter out the emotionel and demanding stuff so only pure valuable clear information is left.

Hope you reconsider your decision as your work here is super.

/sEi


Thank you for your kind words.
As my answer will be off topic, I reacted in the following post:
The EUTW used force to kick me out!

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